AKC Representatives: Mr. James Crowley, Vice President AKC
ACA President:  Rita Biddle, presiding.

Rita Biddle: Hi. This is problematic. I don't know. As far as we knew, everything was clear for the Japanese to be here at 8, but something has gone afoul and, so, the premise of this gathering is not a formal structure. The Japanese, when we were in New York, they said they would want to be doing a slide show and a presentation.
   But, when I spoke with them earlier they said, no they really didn't want to do that. Now, maybe they've changed their mind again, I don't know. But again what we really want to do is this is just to afford people the opportunity to come and speak to the issue, to ask questions.
   Mr. Crowley is back here. You can ask AKC questions. And when we put out the little brochure Future of the Akita, the first part of that was dedicated to questions and answers that we had gathered up to that point anyhow and we were writing to Jim back and forth many,many, many times as we'd get questions in, and he was very gracious in answering them very expeditiously.
   So, there's not going to be any formal statement, this is just for a sharing of ideas and we intend to do this again in Denver. When we go over to Germany in a week or two at their Congress, the Japanese would like us to have a formal position but we don't because we haven't really had the opportunity to fully discuss it with the whole membership. And, that's one of the reasons that the board chose to at least wait a year and have a discussion, another discussion in Denver so that everybody who wants to can have the opportunity to be heard and to listen to what their peers have to say. So that's it.
   As I understand the options relative to the splitting issue, they would be: leave things as they are, create varieties, do a split, I think that's about all the generic options, generalized options. And then, if we do nothing, that one's easy. We don't have to do any more. If we do either, varieties or a split, then there are AKC requirements which must be met and, of course, any decision will be by a three-quarter [I think it's three-quarter] vote of the membership in writing.
    Two-thirds? OK, thank you, I .... Two-thirds or three-quarters. So, it's not a decision that the board's going to make, it's not a decision that I'm going to make, it's a decision that you're going to make.
   So, anyhow, in order to make that decision, we need to talk and that's why we're here. So, who would like to go first? I went first, so who would like to go second? Susan?

Susan: Actually, I'd like Mr. Crowley to go second and explain in AKC terms the ramifications of either splitting the breed or varieties.

Rita: OK. I think that that's probably a very good place to go second. Mr. Crowley.

Jim Crowley: Good morning. In a way, the procedures are actually putting the cart before the horse. As I've explained to the board [and the Japan Kennel Club is well aware] when it comes to something breed-specific like this AKC is not going to initiate anything unless the request actually comes from the parent club. So, as Rita said, it is going to be up to you, whether we can even look into doing anything at all.
  As far as going varieties or going separate breeds, in either case it would entail a change in the breed standard .... Either a change in the breed standard to explain and describe a separate variety or in fact a separate distinct breed standard where you'd have two standards describing two different breeds that would be mutually exclusive.
   You'd have the Japanese Akita [or whatever the eventual name is] and the American Akita [or whatever the eventual name is]. It'd just be like the English Cocker Spaniel and the American Cocker Spaniel. Two separate distinct breeds. In either case, it would be a matter of going to the membership, and the by-laws would require they have a two-thirds vote of the membership to approve either including a variety into your standard or amending the standard and coming up with a new standard.
  If you did eventually request that the AKC board include two breeds, in all likelihood the Akita Club of America, at least initially, would remain the parent club for the two breeds. This is what we did to the Fox Terriers and the Norwich/Norfolk Terriers where there's still only one parent club for the two distinct breeds. So that would be the precedent that would probably be followed there.
   It would be a matter of, first of all, probably having an opinion poll to see if there was even the interest in the club or sufficient interest to go forward with the actual procedures rather than going right into changing the by-laws, and it'd probably first be wise to see if what the opinion of the club's membership was. Was there actually sufficient interest to warrant the split or warrant varieties to proceed and go forward with the technical votes that of changing the necessary by-laws?
  As far as splitting the breeds, when a new breed comes into AKC, if that's the route that the club does request and AKC approves, we usually require that there be a sufficient gene pool in this country with a good geographic distribution before the breed will get full recognition and be put into a group, most likely the working group.
   Generally, a new breed coming in, we require an absolute number of something in the area of seven or eight hundred living dogs that would form the foundation stock in AKC's registry. It could be actually AKC dogs that are registered now. It could be dogs that can be taken from some other domestic registry. We'd actually take over some other domestic registry. Or we have what we call an open registry where for a period of time,negotiated between AKC and the club generally in the area of three years, we do accept pedigrees from some other domestic registry.
   This is what was done with the Border Collies, the Australian Shepherds, the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. We actually accepted the pedigrees from the other domestic registry for a period of time to build up the gene pool of foundation stock with AKC.So those are all possibilities if itctually comes to that.
   One suggestion has been made to divide it by pedigree, where any dogs that are Japanese import or any subsequent generation bred in this country where all the lines go back strictly to Japanese import, would become the Japanese Akita. I'll just use those names now since no definitive decision has been made on names. Those dogs would become Japanese Akitas. Any dogs that have been in the registry that had been interbred with American stock , Japanese imports that had been interbred with American stock, all of those dogs would become or remain the American Akita. That's just again a proposal, that's not a decision, that's not something that AKC has mandated, it's just something that has been discussed as one possibility of how we're going to divide these dogs that are now all AKC-registered Akitas and decide which goes here and which goes here.
   I think there would have to be some clear-cut decision and not just leave it up to individual owners oh I want my dog to be here or I want my dog to be there. It would have to be something, and one logical suggestion has been using pedigrees to actually define which dog would go into which place.
   The procedure again would be probably first be an opinion poll to see if there's sufficient interest. If there is sufficient interest, it would then be a matter of contacting the AKC board and saying the club wants to do this and developing a timetable and a procedure, the primary facet of which would be amending the standard even if you go with varieties or go with breeds. And in our discussions with the Japan Kennel Club, they were not really interested in going varieties for the simple reason they are adamantly against interbreeding Japanese stock with the American stock and...[inaudible question from audience] my impression was they were against interbreeding the dogs. [inaudible comment from audience]. Just in my discussions that's been my impression, but again I could be wrong .... They said over and over .... [inaudible comment from audience] If varieties, that would mean they would be shown separately but they could be certainly interbred, and the resulting litters could be registered. [more inaudible comments from audience]

Cristina Egland (?): I was speaking to Mr. Kariyabu and his interpreter and he was shocked that there would be any reason not to be able to breed to the imports. He feels it would be correcting some of the things that the Americans are lacking and that the Americans can correct some of the things the Japanese are lacking. This was said right in front of me. And I heard them both with my own ears.

Jim Crowley: I think part of their reservation, if my impression about that interbreeding was, when dogs are exported then if they do, even if we went varieties, in all likelihood FCI would have 2 different breeds. And what would happen when you export an American dog to these countries? Which way would it go if it was an interbred dog? Would it be a Japanese Akita in FCI or an American Akita?

Cristina (?): ...... Because they go by the standard ...[mostly inaudible]

Jim Crowley: They do that with the Belgian breeds but I think the differences in the Akita would be a lot more subtle than a clearly distinctive visible coat difference. [inaudible comment] The gist of it is that , OK [more inaudible comment from the audience] but you're saying that variety would be a transition rather than a permanent solution.

Cristina (?): [partly inaudible] Not correct. No, it wouldn't be variety. It's just that he said when he said that of course Mr. Kariyabu ..... Given a ?? amount of time to reach the point to go for the Japanese type ...??....and give the people and the Akita, the ACA or whatever a chance to achieve what .?. they want to achieve .....??.... A change they couldn't do .?. before.

Jim Crowley: It'd still be a split. It's just a time factor .... It's the number of years.

Cristina (?): That's the time frame. And then it would be not ....it would be ... what it would be is it if we did have a split it would split at a certain point... [inaudible]

Jim Crowley: So they're not looking for a permanent variety solution. It would be a split in the breed.

Cristina (?): It sure would be. But in a period of time.

Unidentified male: Excuse me. I just must've been on a different planet yesterday because I've been in a meeting with the Japanese, and they were definitely against interbreeding. ..... They're here and we can ask them. 
[audience comment: they were told that the meeting was going to be at 9:00.] It was my understanding that there were two different opinions..?..but probably we should ask the guy who said it.

Cristina (?): We did. We were talking to the interpreter [many speaking at once .... Can't comprehend/transcribe]

Interpreter: .... Explain the basic policy of Japan Kennel Club in this guide ...?

Unidentified female: I just have one quick comment. Not who said what to whom but what is happening. It's rather apparent that the Japanese are more than willing to export our Akitas. How many have they imported to quote improve their breed?

Rita: For this piece of the discussion, let's ask questions of Jim that are related to AKC. I have a couple. You mentioned that you would realize (?) domestic registries. Akiho would or would not be considered an American registry? Would the Akiho-registered dogs be counted in the breeding pool of the ..

Jim Crowley: The Akiho, the registry is actually maintained in Japan, not in this country. There we do have a reciprocal agreement with Japan. The only dogs that are imported to the US from Japan that AKC will register are those that are first registered with the Japan Kennel Club prior to being exported. Now something like this, if it was a request from the Japan Kennel Club, I'm sure something could be worked out for those Akiho dogs for a period of time ... and it would be a limited period of time ... could be accepted with the AKC registry and this would only be based upon the concurrence of the Japan Kennel Club.
   If Japan Kennel Club is not in favor of it, which I'm sure they would be, we would not do it. The only registry in Japan we have a reciprocal agreement with is the Japan Kennel Club, so any exception to that would have to be worked out between the Japan Kennel Club and the American Kennel Club. The old "where there's a will, there's a way" ... And, if the Japan Kennel Club is receptive to that, I'm sure we would probably work it out if this is also what the Akita Club of America wished.

Rita: So let me clarify the question. Again in establishing the pool of seven to eight hundred dogs, would AKC require that they be 100% Japanese blood, or three-quarter or one-quarter or what would it be?

Jim Crowley: The actual method of splitting would have to be something that would be worked out based upon the request from the Akita Club of America with something reasonable, some reasonable rationale on the way to split. If it was reasonable, in all likelihood our board would go with it. I would think the mixed breed dogs, the dogs between the Japanese and American types, would in all likelihood and rationally stay with the American Akitas since they were brought in to improve the breed stock here.
   The whole premise of this is that the Japan Kennel Club wishes not to have the interbreeding. It would not seem logical to start the foundation stock with the dogs that have been bred between the two types. That's getting away from why we're starting the whole new foundation stock to start with.

Pat Szymanski: I have a question ..?.. about the figure of the six to seven hundred dogs.

Jim Crowley: It's just the general average. To come into a variety group now that's about what we've been requiring, the mid hundreds .... About six or seven hundred dogs is a ballpark figure.

Pat: I do know of other breeds that have been way way less than that.

Jim Crowley: Not in recent decades even breeds coming into the registry

Pat: Now is this just for varieties or would this be for a total split

Jim Crowley: If it's varieties that's an entirely, I'm talking about entirely splits, coming in as a new breed, an entirely new breed.

Pat: I do know of some other breeds that ..?.. with considerably less than six or seven hundred.

Jim Crowley: That actually come into a group? [inaudible response] Not in recent years anyway. I can think of all the recent breeds coming up [inaudible response] I've been involved since the Sharpei, ...?... Breeds like the Cavaliers, the Australians, the Border Collies, the Jack Russell and all that well over a thousand.

Pat(?): ..?.. They were considerably less, and there was another breed. If I can think of it I'll..?.. I was given the numbers in New York, very very, very very low...

Unidentified male: You mentioned that the 100% Japanese line to split at, that would seem most reasonable? Right now though, perhaps that'd be true when they first came in, but now we've got dogs that've been bred to three-quarter, seven-eighths import lines. Now those dogs have anywhere from three to seven times more import genetic material in them ...?.... Their actual physical appearance.....?....
   To me it doesn't seem reasonable anymore to necessarily go 100%. Where are those other dogs going to be shown now? It does look that way, and they look just as good or just the same or very similar to that other breed now but they're in the opposite breed. What are you going to do with those dogs? There are probably more of them than there are of the other.

Jim Crowley: There again, basically what I've been saying is based on the discussion. Now, till we actually get a formal request from the Akita Club when they come up with a rationale, it's hard to say now. What we would have to have though is something definitive ... Say, three-quarters would be Japanese, anything less American, whatever. You'd have to have some cut-and-dried criteria.
   What we would not do is just leave it up to each owner ....oh, I want my dog to be in this type, I want my dog to be in this type ... It'd have to be some clearly definitive thing that our computer and registration people can command and actually move into the two different registries. As long as it made sense and of course ..?.. that it could be done, but it would have to be, of course, across-the-board split down and everything that was in this category went here, everything that was in this category went there. It's not going to be a mishmash where each owner can make up their own decision.

Pat: Just one point of clarification that I'd like to have made clear. And that is with the issue of the numbers. As I understand it from my discussion before, the issue of seven, eight or a thousand dogs is for recognizing a breed to compete for points or to go in a group.

Jim Crowley: Right.

Pat: If you were going to recognize a breed into miscellaneous to start with, those numbers do not hold, right?

Jim Crowley: Yes, exactly. Breeds coming into miscellaneous now are fully registered, and they can compete performance events. The only thing they can't do is compete for championships in shows till they build up sufficient numbers in which case they then move into a variety group.

Unidentified female: Aside from the color differences, how do the Japanese Kennel Club breed standards and our breed standards differ? I mean ... I'm seeing here completely dogs, I'm seeing completely different types. I'm not talking types. I'm talking breed standards.    How do the breed standards differ in other regards?

Rita: Maybe you want to ask that question to ...?... In addition, in the last issue of Akita dog, there is that form ..?... Hold that question. You have a question for Mr. Crowley?

Unidentified female: At the present time in this country we are judging the Akita by the American standard which of course the ACA petitioned the AKC to accept a long time ago.

Jim Crowley: Correct

Same female: Does the Japanese Kennel Club as, well, I mean that's the country of origin [and it's customary to go with the country of origin for the standard] .... Can they impose upon the AKC that the Akita is now going to be judged by the FCI? I mean, how does that work?

Jim Crowley: If there's going to be any change at all, it'd have to be initiated by the membership of the Akita Club of America. Under AKC's by-laws, the Akita Club of America owns the Akita standard, and only the Parent Club can initiate a change, subject to AKC approval. But, any change would have to be initiated from the Akita Club of America.

Same female: So, in foreign countries, supposedly their parent clubs have just accepted ....

Jim Crowley: Not parent clubs, it would vary. They go by FCI which is an oversight organization regulating events in many countries. As far as the breed standards, they delegate that to the country of origin. And if the country of origin (change tape) ... So they use the FCI standard. One of the reasons AKC could never join FCI is that we have reciprocal agreement with FCI: they would approve any FCI shows in this country and they recognize us as the only registry in this country. So they cannot force us. We would not try to impose our standard on a foreign country, and they could not impose their standard on us.
   Anything that's going to change in the Akita standard will come from the Akita Club of America, not from AKC and not from any outside force.

Pat: [barely audible] I think you clarified ..?... And I don't know how these rumors got started ...?... But it has never ever been mentioned that the AKC standard would be changed. Never. The AKC standard is the standard that will and should be accepted all the time, whether there be a split tomorrow.
   It would be the Japanese dogs that would adopt a standard that would more adapt to our dogs.The American dogs that we have now will always be kept under the AKC standard. We have no desire to change the standard for the American dog, nor does JKC, nor does FCI.It's the American Akita standard, and that's the way it should be and the way it will be. So that needs to be clarified. If and when the split takes place, it will be the Japanese dog that will adopt the FCI/JKC/country of origin standard.
   The standards are very alike in verbiage, and that has a lot to do with the inability and the hard way of determining ..?... The problem is not within the standard. It's that we have dogs that do not fit the standards. The two standards are alike, yes, but the two breeds of dogs are different. And the American you know ..?.. some other way of trying to keep things stirred up. The AKC standard is in no jeopardy whatsoever, and that has to be clarified.

Unidentified female: I want to step on the other side of what was last. The other side of the looking glass. Let's just presume for a minute that FCI/JKC splits the breed which is everywhere but what? English Kennel Club? American Kennel Club?

Jim Crowley: Most of the English speaking countries in the world are not in FCI. Canada is not. England is not. Australia ..?.., New Zealand is.

Same female: Let's say the English speaking world versus the FCI. If the FCI has two breeds, what is AKC going to do about importing these if we only keep one breed?

Jim Crowley: OK, well, this again we would probably consult with the Akita Club of America. If the Akita Club of America wishes to accept both of the breeds as Akitas, the American kennel club would probably do that. 
   The problem would probably run the other way as to how the countries outside of the United States would treat imports into their countries. For example, there have been movements in some countries to split the white German Shepherd from the German Shepherd. But the white German Shepherd came into this country, even though it was registered as a white German Shepherd out (?), We can still register it as a German shepherd here. ..?.. Unless the Akita Club felt differently, anything breed-specific, the Akita Club of America is probably going to have the final say on anything affecting it.

Barbara Hampton (?): [barely audible] I think one of my questions was handled, but basically I wanted to ask: say, just for argument sake, we do not split breeds. What does the AKC suggest ?) On splitting classes by color? In other words, if we wanted to take our open classes and have an open white, an open-red/white face, an open brindle ... If we had enough competition to have a class, ...

Jim Crowley: Certainly many breeds do have classes divided by color and that's established by the parent club of those breeds. This is an acceptable division in a breed, provided it can be consistent with the standard. That would be fine.

Kay Greisen: I have a series of questions and I want to make a comment. You were saying something about one possibility would be splitting by geography. I don't have personal knowledge of dogs from Japan versus dogs from the United States.

Jim Crowley: Dogs with strict ... after a certain year, there was a period of time where we did not have a reciprocal agreement with Japan. Dogs could not be brought into that country. We would pick some arbitrary year, subsequent to that agreement with the Japan Kennel Club, and dogs imported into the country and all dogs that are strictly bred back to those dogs could be considered the Japanese type as well as any current dogs being brought in from Japan.
   Any dogs that have been interbred with other American dogs would be considered or remain the American Akita. This is all speculation at this point. Until we actually get a proposal from the Parent Club this is just one way that has been suggested to delineate how we would actually divide and have two separate breeds. 

Kay Greisen: My comment is: I've been told, and I don't know if this is true, that not all the Akitas being bred in Japan are of the Japanese type. That some of them are of the American. How would you deal with that?

Jim Crowley: Again, Mr. Awashima can better answer what is happening in Japan. 

Kay Greisen: I have a very basic question: how exactly does the American Kennel Club define a breed?

Jim Crowley: Of course, if you go far enough back, every breed, every breed is a mixed breed though. So it's a matter of a breed that going back to a certain point in time that's been defined, clarified with a standard, and from that point on has bred true and only dogs that have been registered as that breed and conform to that standard that's been bred to another dog of the same category, they would have registerable litters. Once we define a breed and put it on our registry as a breed, from that point on it is considered a breed and we would only register litters if that dog is bred to a registered dog of the same breed. 

Kay Greisen: And when you talk about breeding true, is there a time frame? Over how many generations? Or how many years?

Jim Crowley: Well, before AKC accepts the breed, it would have to be recognized in some registry, either a registry kept in the United States ...<tape direction change>... Registered dog for a period of years or generations. There's no hard-and-fast rule, but any breed coming in ... We're probably talking ten, twelve generations minimum of a purebred specimen kept by a creditable registry or AKC actually based its foundation stock on that other registry.

Kay Greisen: I have another question. Prior to foundation stock registration, I was handling the registry of the Akitas in this country. And I'm very familiar, or I was very familiar, with pedigrees issued by the different registries in Japan. And, the registration committee was very concerned at that time about the accuracy of the pedigrees issued by the Japan Kennel Club and their policies.
   And, what I'm wondering is, when the breed when you reopened the registration of imports in '92, was there any stipulation about JKC's policies? Did they have to clean up their act, so to speak?

Jim Crowley: We were in close communication with the Japan Kennel Club for many years. Members of our computer and registration staff went to Japan, visited with them, went through their registration procedure, the registration paperwork, and we were convinced that they had a creditable registry, at least as creditable as AKC's. Perfectly reliable. We had no problem at all accepting their pedigrees. Otherwise the board would not have agreed to have this reciprocal agreement.
   There are many countries in FCI where we did not accept their pedigrees for various reasons. It's not an automatic thing. We go country by country. Each case is carefully examined, the registration paperwork and procedures, before they're put on the acceptable list. So, if anybody is on the acceptable list, and there are about forty countries that are, the board has carefully examined or taken a staff recommendation that they are carefully examined and have completely creditable registries. We are assured of that. As of '92, we've had no problem at all in accepting the Japanese pedigrees.

Madeleine Smith: [barely audible] I understand that ...?... opposed to Americans using imports to continue improving American dogs. They have no interest in how American dogs are going to Japan. But, what they are interested in is that a framework of years is set.
   In other words, if we say we need twenty years to complete this process of stabilizing characteristics in the American Akitas, then we would agree to a split. Would AKC allow that type of framework where the Akita Club of America says we will agree to a split in twenty years if you allow us to obtain the quality imports from Japan to improve ...?... And so forth and so on? If we can do that, then we will agree to...?..

Jim Crowley: ...?... Twenty years from now. I don't know. My impression is ... They can speak for themselves ... But my impression is they are going to go ahead outside of the United States in FCI and split the breed, whether it's two years down, three years down ...?... In this country, if the Akita Club of America wanted to leave it like it is and come back, I doubt if our board is going to say OK effective 2020 we're going to have a split ..?...
   We don't know what the Akita membership is going to be then. It could be a complete change of opinion or something in the next twenty years. I'd be more interested in what's planned for the next two or three years rather than for twenty years down the road. If you vote now to keep it as it is, then you can bring in Japanese imports to breed with the American stock, that's your decision. And, if you're going to change in twenty years, you should come back either seventeen years from now or ...
   Twenty years is a little bit too far for a time frame for us to ..?.. Approve a split twenty years down the road.

Unidentified female: [barely audible] The decision to allow the imports back into the nited States was not undertaken lightly....By ACA or AKC. And since there are many different styles of American Akitas as well. When you look into the ring, you see many different head types, different body types, different coloration's ... And since we do have several AKC champions ...?... such as ...?...and different champions who are as much like the mport as they are the American dog. Since our breed club and AKC sanctioned these breedings that we have now done, some of us, some of us feel as if we ...?... Because we don't want to go with dogs that do not resemble...

Jim Crowley: What's your question?

Same female: The question is: is it going to penalize those of us who believed ACA and AKC when they said you won't do this? Because all Akitas are ..?.. a breed ..?..

Jim Crowley: No dog is going to lose its registration, its titles, or lose credit on titles or anything like that. I don't know what you mean by penalized?

Same female: Will the Japanese imports who are now AKC champions ...

Jim Crowley: They would keep their championships ..?.. We're not going to strip the titles

Unidentified female: Maybe you could clarify for us the difference between like we were split putting the dogs into classes versus putting them into a variety versus the split.

Jim Crowley: Well, classes and ...?... No matter how many classes you have, there's one winners dog and one winners bitch who can get the points and one best of breed that goes into the group. When you have varieties, you have a winners dog and winners bitch in each variety, and there would be two representatives that go into the group. That's the variety

Pat: I really have to take exception to what Madeleine said about the dogs. I don't know what she was in but I watched the judging and I have never seen better quality, more consistency than I have in the American Akita in the ring. You were saying that the American Akitas need this and need that. I think that they're getting it within their own breed. When I looked at those young males, the head types were very very ..?.. They all had stops, they all had width. Just about 99% of them had forward tilt ear. I thought the tail, the topline, the whole quality of the dog was excellent. All the feet were knuckled up. Some of them weren't as tight but the Akitas that had terrible feet, they had what I call turtle feet, I feel one hundred and ten percent improvement in these American dogs.
   We have done tweenie breedings. All of us have. And what you're doing is ..?.. you're creating a third breed. When you have ...just a moment, I'm talking from experience ... When you have this great big massive dog and you put in ... Some people have been lucky and some people like the type ... When you get these great big dogs, these American dogs with the big square blocky heads which they are supposed to have, and you incorporate the Japanese dogs, and you get a pointier muzzle, ...?...
   You're breeding in more inconsistency. The Japanese dogs are much different in structure and some people can't see it maybe because they can't see beyond color. The Japanese dog is a more upright dog, it's got a tuck up like a narrower dog. There's thirty pounds difference between the average American dog and the average Japanese dog. When you incorp. ... Some of these American their bone is like this. Even in our largest Japanese dogs we don't want nor need nor do we have bone like that. It would throw the whole balance of the Japanese dog off.
   If you keep incorporating, you're going to eventually get this great big bony dog, and the chests are going to be narrower. Excuse me, I've done this. I think I have more Akitas than anybody ... Just a moment .... Eventually what you're going to get ...[general chaos]

Rita: This part is for questions for Mr. Crowley. Do you have a question for Mr. Crowley?
   We will do more discussion. If you have a question, it's for him.

Pat: You can't ... Before going through what I ... I mean, you can't have two varieties. Why? Because there's not two varieties of dogs. There's at least twenty (?) Varieties ..?.. You can't get two varieties..?.. [general chaos]

Unidentified female: [totally inaudible]

Jim Crowley: Yes, if there was a split in the breed, say, it was January 1, 2000, and you imported a dog from Japan at that point, it would, if the Japanese type Akita was in the miscellaneous class at that point, it would be a registerable dog but until there were sufficient numbers, it would probably be in miscellaneous.

Unidentified female: I've got a champion. So he's going to be in miscellaneous.

Jim Crowley: Right. The breed would be in miscellaneous. The dog would maintain any titles. Then again, we're speculating. I couldn't tell you at this point if we're dealing with a hundred dogs or if we're dealing with five hundred dogs ... If we're talking about owned by ten people or owned by five hundred people. Until we actually run the numbers, it's hard to speculate on exactly what will happen.

Unidentified female: Do you have knowledge of what the FCI countries are discussing on how they're planning on doing the split? And how soon they're planning on ....

Jim Crowley: Again, Mr. Awashima .... Yes, the Japan Kennel Club is chairing the meeting next year in Germany so they can better address that.

Unidentified female: I would like to ..?..the Japanese kennel club at this point. I personally have exported two American heavy boned ... A mismark and a red with a black mask ... over to Japan. They tried breeding them in with their Akitas to get bone. It did not work. [general applause]

Barbara Hampton(?): I just have a question about ...?... So, say for instance, Japanese imports that have attained their American championships prior to whenever we do the split. Would that dog and all her progeny, be it American-blend or be it total Akiho Japanese, would those dogs all go into the new miscellaneous?

Jim Crowley: It depends on how we're going to define the existing dogs here as to being American and to the Japan Akita Club criteria. It would be based upon the Akita Club of America coming up with a rationale for doing it and for our board approving that which, if reasonable, we would approve it. It's really speculating now until we actually have a concrete proposal to look at.

Susan Cargill: I have a very short three-part question. Bear with me on the first two please. I need horse people's attention. Maybe Sophia can answer me because we're talking about splitting by pedigree. What is the percentage that appendix quarter horses are allowed? Seventy-five percent? Fifty?

Sophia: I have no idea. I'm not into quarter horses.

Susan: I know because they keep a registry exactly like that. And I know AKC, once we split, will not allow the crosses back into. But that's something that we genetically should think about since the horse breeders have been doing this for quite a number of years. And the dog breeders better get educated on that. Seven-eighths? OK. That's just a mental note maybe people need to think about.
   Second question I have very quickly for Mr. Crowley is, if they do have the numbers, you're probably ... You know a lot of people are scared of going into miscellaneous and losing their championships and not being able to compete ... We're probably talking a very short period in miscellaneous ... Six months to a year, is that?

Jim Crowley: Yes, probably. It depends on the numbers, if it goes accordingly in miscellaneous, we're probably talking a year, maybe two years at the outside. Until we actually see the numbers, it's hard to even .... So maybe they won't even have to go into miscellaneous if they have sufficient numbers and distribution initially. Again, we're speculating. I couldn't tell you what the split would be if we actually tried to divide it out right now. 

Susan: Well, some people are scared it's going to be years and years. And the third part, and I don't mean to be defensive about this but maybe I was in a coma in '91 and '92, but I sure don't remember ACA working out with AKC anything about importing.

Jim Crowley: We're dealing again anything breed-specific, we would work with the breed club. When we're dealing with all-breed registries which would affect all breeds, we have ...The AKC has a reciprocal agreement with the Kennel Club, with the Canadian Kennel Club, with the Japan Kennel Club. We don't go to a hundred and forty-six breed clubs to reach those agreements.

Nancy: Perhaps we can, and I don't mean to have you shorten your questions, but perhaps we can get the information from the JKC representatives and then come back to more questions so we have all the information before we go out. Thank you.

Unidentified male: I was going to add something about the horse question. I raise Quarter horses. What happens is if you use a Thoroughbred with a Quarter-horse mare, the foal simply would be an Appendix mare. And what happens is that you have to have that foal inspected by the American Quarter-horse Association to meet all any ... The standard for that horse to be accepted as a Quarter-horse. So it has that ... I don't know how you get seven-eighths in one breeding and all that kind of thing, but that's the way they do it. And they actually come down and inspect it. It has to have certain color, ... There's a whole lot of things. But then they actually photograph it .. Front, side, the whole thing. ....?...

Jim Crowley: I'd just like to say one or two quick things. I have to leave about ten thirty to catch a flight so I'll be here another hour or so. It's probably good for you to hear from the Japan Kennel Club directly as to why they're taking the position they're taking. If you don't get your question answered here, you can feel free to call or write anytime. As far as procedure, I'm not going to talk philosophy. What's for the good of the breed is going to be determined by you the Akita Club of America membership.
   And again what I'd like to do is assure you that AKC is not going to initiate anything unless the movement for it comes from the Akita Club of America. So you have that assurance it's going to be your decision either way.
   Once the decision is made, then AKC would become involved as far as helping you set up procedures, timetables, that type of thing. But the actual philosophical decision is going to have to be made by you, the Akita Club of America.
   I'll be here for another hour or so, if any procedural questions come up during Mr. Awashima's comments. [GENERAL APPLAUSE]

Transcript JKC Portion of Forum 10/18/98 ( by Madeleine B. Smith )

Madeleine B. Smith's Recording - Note: Recorder voice activated. If it could not detect voice it did not record, therefore, most questions asked were not recorded. Also, question mark is placed where words were not understood.

Recorded at JKC Forum 10-18-98 after Akita Club of America National Specialty Show in San Diego, CA

JKC Delegates: Mr. Toyasaku Kariyabu - Bred and exhibited Akitas - FCI all breed judge - Has served as President of the Japan Kennel Club, Asia Kennel Union and Delegate of the Asian Section of the FCI - Is currently Honorary Chairman of the Japan Kennel Club and Honorary President of the Asia Kennel Union. Mr. Mitsuteru Hoshi - Vice President of Japan Kennel Club - Editorial Staff of the book AKITA - Japan Kennel Club Mr. Izumi Awashima - Translator and breeder of German Shepherd dogs

INTRODUCTION by Translator

   Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to explain the basic policy of Japan Akita Club and FCI about Akita problems.
   If you can read this book [AKITA - Japan Kennel Club] maybe you can understand the history occurred ? of Akita and maybe you can understand the reason why JKC is intending to split the Akita into two different breeds.
   As you know, in Japan we have almost 100% Japanese type Akitas. On the contrary, in the United States maybe more than 90%, 95% American type. Maybe our Japanese type is a little bit increasing, but, no so big part of total population of Akitas in United States. So, the United States and in Japan we have, it's a big problem even if we don't split cause problem is existing in Europe and in America.
   Four years ago by the General Assembly in Vienna of FCI we are asked to consider the possibility to split. This proposition or this question was brought from Mexico and also same questions come through Europe county. Europe as in America, if we have only one Akita, in FCI countries it is a very big problem for America type Akitas in Europe and ? cause there is very, very small possibilities for American type Akita which can compete or finish champion title in FCI cause our standard in FCI countries is JKC standard, the country of origin. And as you know, after Second World War, 1960s or beginning of 1970s our Akitas in Japan and American type, maybe this time very short maybe 10 years or 15 years, when we have produced many champions of American type in Japan.
   But, after that the many breeders considered, OK, this Kongo type or American type is just, have influence, look, of other breed, in this case Mastiff called Tosa the Fighting Dog. And during the Second World War we have very small genetic stocks of Akitas so that in order to keep the blood of Akita the breeder of Akita crossbred with German Shepherd only because German Shepherd was approved as army dogs.
   And after Second World War we have three different types of Akitas. One is original Japanese type we called it Matagi type, hunting dog type and second is fighting dog type a mixture of these fighting dogs, second [third] is a mixture with a German Shepherd. And, maybe the 1970s many breeders started to eliminate the difference from other breeds. But, since twenty years we have not exchanged of the blood of Akitas between Japan and the
United States because American Kennel Club can't recognize our pedigrees. Since 1992, if you want import, Japanese type Akita from Japan, you can not, you could not, you could not, register in American Kennel Club. And this is very brief ? of why we have three types.
   The Japanese breeder ? the original Japanese type and in United States you must use only imported Akita during 1945 and 1972 I think [74] sorry. Now as a member of FCI, Japan must set up or define its kind of Akita. Of course as a country of origin we must take note Japanese type when we decide our standard.
   But at that time, I mean 1970s or 1980s, the European countries already many Akitas from United States. Directly from United States or indirectly, I mean through England to European countries. And those breeders of Akitas in European countries have been breeders of American type. They could not exhibit their dogs cause they cannot get point, they cannot finish  championship. And Japan Kennel Club, as a member of FCI board, would not also consider this ? of American type in Europe.
   We want to save the existence of American type Akitas in Europe and in America. We have considered, we have also other possibilities, not to split but to varieties, but, if we take two varieties it is allowed to interbred and with the interbreeding in Europe, maybe ten years they tried, the results is not so successful. If we consider this problem with long term, I mean with thirty years or fifty years maybe they can be successful, but, in the short term, five years, ten years, this is our experience. And also we got advice from ? commission and standard commission of FCI. The variety is not suitable in the case of Akita. Of course some breeders in Europe they tried to change the type by interbreeding. Of course this is a decision of the breeder, but to tell you the truth, the results is not so successful.
   The first weekend of November, the JKC and FCI will oversight the Second World Congress of Akita in Germany. All together eighteen countries will attend to discuss the problem. The basic policy of Japan Kennel Club is to split. In case of splitting we have many, many problems to resolve. How to divide the interbred Akita in Europe, from the pedigree or the policy of the breeder, so, but details, details will be decided by the standard commission and ? commission. From which date shall we split is also very important because registration in every country is different in Europe. Maybe we must discuss also this problem.
   And yesterday Mr. Kariyabu mentioned about the naming for the new breed. In this case the new breed means American type because Akita in FCI countries is Japanese type. And many ideas to give the name for new breed that Mr. Kariyabu had mentioned yesterday, he will take note the opinion of ACA. Even if ACA is now not deciding to split or not to split.
   Furthermore, FCI is international organization, we have approximately sixty nine member countries, but approximately twenty or twenty five countries are very interested in Akita problem. We have invited approximately twenty five countries and we got the answer to participate eighteen countries. That is a very good number of countries, of course including Akita Club of America and Akita Club of England and Finland, Sweden, Norway, Germany, France, Belgium, Poland, ? and Japan.
   If the World Congress of Akita in Germany decide to split, this information will be published by the general committee meeting, the board meeting with FCI, at the end of November in Berlin. And if there's no problem by board meeting and FCI commission and also standard commission the final decision will be made in general assembly of FCI in Mexico City next year in June.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 

Note: My recorder only picked up voices close to it, therefore most questions were not picked up. Only part of remembered question listed with the answer. MBSmith

Mr. Kariyabu and Mr. Hoshi translated by Izumi Awashima 
   We have now here our Chairman of Japan Akita Club [Mr. Kariyabu] and Vice President of Japan Kennel Club [Mr. Hoshi]. And I'm not a specialist of Akita. I'm a Schipperke and German Shepherd breeder/judge. Some special questions about Akita Mr. Hoshi and Kariyabu can answer.
   About American type Akita, Mr. Kariyabu would like to mention, briefly, he believes country of origin of American type Akita is Japan. United States of America the country of patronage or country of development, so that Mr. Kariyabu takes note the opinion of American breeders. 
   Japan is country of origin but today we have no, maybe one or two, American type imported from United States. That we have no American type Akita in Japan, considering so that like Mr. Kariyabu like to respect the opinion of American breeder or opinion of Akita Club of America. We have made clear is Akita Club of America or American Kennel Club, JKC is quite clear. But also FCI is a democratic country and by the World Congress in Germany we get many propositions of us naming from various countries in Europe but we cannot say now the final decision. It must be discussed and maybe decided by democratic way by voting or something.

Question: about interbreeding. 
Answer: Maybe my explanation about interbreeding in Europe I must add something [referring to introduction] and with the advice of Mr. Kariyabu. My information that the breeding is not so successful in Europe, it means if we consider interbreeding is so far but in five or six generations, ten years or more generations, maybe the results is different. Opinion interbreeding has not been successful, this information is from the country, the representative of the countries, maybe the President of each kennel club or President of Swiss Kennel Club, not directly from the breeder. 
   And Mr. Kariyabu wants more information about the success or failure of
interbreeding. And some countries says their on the way of interbreeding so that please give time, more time, to split. This kind of opinion from Norway and Sweden.

Question: about has Japan allow breeding of Akitas to Siberian Huskies and registered with JKC 
Answer: No, it is logistically impossible to breed Japanese Akita and Siberian Husky cause Japan Kennel Club is a pure breed club and it's not allowed to breed, to crossbreed Siberian Husky and Akita in Japan.

Question: about defining standard of new breed 
Answer: Generally speaking the country of origin can define the standard of the breed. In the case of American type, new breed for FCI, the country of origin is Japan, the country of development or country of patronage is United States but we have eliminated or we have ? out the breed of  American type from our countries, we don't have only two or three imported of American type of United States so that the standard commissions, commission will take mainly the standard from the United States. 
   But, but, finally we must coordinate the opinion of Japan, opinion of the standard commission, opinion of ?. In the case of changing standards, in the case of Akita, Mr. Kariyabu believes the country of patronage or country of development, in this case that is of America, can propose and if you decide the changing of your standard in Akita Club of America, the standard commission of FCI will take note of it and they will consider to change. 
   Mr. Kariyabu would like to add one word. In the case of setting up standard of new breed in FCI will respect the standard of ACA, but in this case, we need always mutual exchange of opinion, some description in your standard can be modified in the standard of FCI but the less modifying the better is the belief of Mr. Kariyabu.

Question: about registering with JKC an American Akita living in the United States.
Answer: At this point, today, if you export your American type of Akita from the United States to Japan, Japan Kennel Club accept and can be registered as Akita because today we have only one breed in Japan and in the United States even if the type different. But, the American type Akita can be registered and can be exhibited in JKC show, but, the breeding, it depends on the breeder and it is not sure that Japanese judge can give you a good placement. If you want exhibit your Akita in Japan, even if you have American pool-Japanese type you can exhibit in JKC show but in a ? this dog must be registered JKC.

Question: If you have no desire to show Japan, if you just only want to have a JKC registration, nothing else. 
Answer: What is the purpose? 

Question: You know I really don't know. It's just a possibility in the future or lets say you wanted two JKC registered dogs here, maybe they are Japanese type. 
Answer: If your purpose is pretending, pretending, legally like or if you avoid legally immigration, or if you avoid legal immigration, or if you avoid immigration legally, not so good from view point of moral, maybe JKC consider case by case.

Question: about JKC in 1960s or 1970s issuing JKC registration in husbands name only instead of husband and wife's name. 
Answer: The situation in 1973, at that time the Akita Club of America was not recognized by the American Kennel Club, yes? And since that time we are not involved and we cannot check now ? the States but we can check in Japan. 
   But it is very, very ridiculous, if you apply the right name of owner and we issue with a different name of owner, it is impossible today because now we're using very precise IBM computers which check, double checking, are checking and checking.

Question: about American breeders who have been using American Akitas to change to Japanese type. 
Answer: Maybe my understanding of your question is right. You are now on the way of changing your type from American type to Japanese type since many years and you'd like to continue this procedure and if in the future ACA split the possibility will disappear cause interbreeding is forbidden. 
   But if you choose the new breed in the United States, in this case Japanese type, you can continue, yeah, to develop or make progress of your dogs. It depends on your choice which direction do you continue to breed.

Question: about confusion, do Japanese agree with crossbreeding Japanese type and American type. 
Answer: The answer is very delicate. In European countries, we have encouraged to make progress or to develop Akita in Europe. In this case we have had only one Akita in these countries. If somebody has American type Akita, we ask to make progress with the breeding, but in this case we checked. If the dam is 75% Japanese and 25% American, we persuaded to finish to breed to change [to Japanese] but now, we are now considering to split, we cannot anymore encourage the breeder in Europe to start to
interbreed.

Question: about how split would be done, would use DNA testing, etc. 
Answer: Japan Kennel Club use DNA tests five times or ten times a year to check if this is real application or real certificate of breeding. In the case of splitting, the DNA test is one of the methods to use but, we believe most important point to split is the breeding policy of the breeder.
   Even if the pedigree describes only 25% blood of Japanese type or if the breeder is going to Japanese breed, maybe we can accept or can recognize the breed as Japanese breed.

Question: about Japan allowing use of frozen semen. 
Answer: We have been studying the breeding with frozen semen or chilled semen and we have finished the study and we are now discussing from which date we recognize the breeding with frozen semen.

Question: about what is descriptions of Japanese type and American type. 
Answer: The definition of Japanese type and American type, there many, many definitions and when we split Akita into different, two different breeds, maybe we must adopt some complete criterion and this will be decided by standard commission and FCI commissions. But Mr. Kariyabu says, OK, so called American type so called Japanese type, but it is very, very difficult to see the line, to distinguish, it depends on the definition.

Question: about how split will be done. 
Answer: If ACA split and maybe it distinguishment or to separate method will be defined by ACA. We have also similar questions from European countries, what is the method, what is the way to separate, what is the criterion, from pedigree or from the breeding policy of the owner. 
   This kind of details must be discussed at the Congress, next Congress Germany. We're speaking if its necessary, Japan Kennel Club make some fundamental basic criterion to split Japanese type and American type. But, this is basic criterion, general criterion, the final criterion should be made by ACA to split. Now no guideline.

Question: about when would criterion be decided. 
Answer: Note: Had to turn tape over, did not record answer - MBSmith.

Question: about would JKC like to ACA to split immediately. 
Answer: ? if ACA decides to split, we are ready to send.

Question: about 30 year study on the migration of the Akita. 
Answer: ? about the ? opinion we know all this kind of research or studies has study with DNA tests and we know we have some Japanese breed from continent, some Japanese breed from different breed and different ?. 
   In case of splitting, we don't ask for DNA tests. This factor and socio factor or human factor must be considered when we split. Mr. Kariyabu says American type, I mean physically American type Akita has DNA setting of Japanese type Akita. To which category each dog belongs to, this is very, very difficult problem. ? not sure if my answer is ? for you. 
   I agree basically with you, the American type body and the Japanese type head very nice to create if possible, we're afraid American type head and Japanese type body can be also possible. And, but my sincere answer is not joking, I'd like to say, if you want to develop or make progress American interbreed, realize your idea, you will need, if you, if you take direction the Japanese tree.

Question: about statement that American Akita immune system gene pool small, will JKC put pressure on ACA to split. 
Answer: I'll repeat your question. In United States gene pool of Akita is not so rich as that of other breed, is that right? We don't want to put any pressure to split, this is the decision of Akita Club of America, but, but, approximately seventy countries will split in the future and the United States is the biggest country of the world, you have more than four point four million registrations a year, Japan is only four hundred thousand registrations last year. 
   And the international relations between USA and Japan is year by year ? . Last year we imported two thousand dogs from United States, if we have different way about Akitas, it makes it more complicated and if possible the biggest organization and second biggest organization stay parallel way in the future. This is our hope, not pressure.

Question: about FCI procedure to recognize new breed. 
Answer: Our legislation FCI says if FCI recognize new breed, the standard commission must check if new breed has at least eight different blood lines and at least two hundred or three hundred registrations a year, I can't remember now. In case of the American type Akita in the United States is enough number and enough blood line.

Question: about does Mr. Kariyabu feel in his heart that splitting best thing to do. 
Answer: Your question is Mr. Kariyabu believes or feels the splitting right or not. His feeling with his heart is as follows - For him both types, American type and Japanese type they're originally Japanese breed. Unfortunately we have approximately twenty years no exchange of the blood between United States and Japan. American type Akita today cannot be recognized in FCI countries. This is a very big tragedy for his heart. 
   He'd like to revive, he'd like to save American type Akita, this is his purpose to split. The American type Akita in European countries and South America countries they cannot be exhibited in FCI shows, they cannot be placed past second, third. If we recognize American type Akita as independent breed, they can be ? in FCI shows, they can be champion of FCI. They can be placed first place, second place, third place. ? condition exists in European countries and in American countries, also Asian countries beside Japan.

Question: about split 
Answer: It is described, is explained in this book [AKITA - Japan Kennel Club] but I can explain, because we'd like to eliminate the influence from other breed.

   A meeting Mr. Kariyabu would like to mention, it's his opinion or belief of his activities. The Japan Kennel Club has studied many things of American Kennel Club and he believes American Kennel Club is one of most advanced organizations in world. And we know you have many experience or more experience in accumulation of scientific datas. You have more history than Japan Kennel Club. Of course, this problem to split Akitas, we have our own opinions, we have our own experiences about Japanese types but you have more experience of American types. We want to exchange or study mutually but the decision will be made by FCI countries and American Kennel Club or Akita Club of America can choose your own way to the future.

Question: about existence of another Japanese breed. 
Answer: We believe pure ? no longer exists.

Mr. Kariyabu would like to thank you so much. And we have continued to sell copies of this book and we will donate ? dollars a copy to Akita Club of America, all together, two hundred and fifty dollars will be donated to Akita Club of America. But, if possible, we want, Mr. Kariyabu want, donate more money and we hope the person who want donate more please come to us and buy.
   ? three? hours to discuss the problem and Mr. Kariyabu believes our discussion very, very constructive and productive. He believes not only Japanese type Akita, but also American type Akita, that both types must be protected as purebreed dogs. 

Transcript JKC Forum
10/18/98 by Madeleine B. Smith